I have it on the highest authority, namely, Uncle Bernie the baker, that back in the bad ole days of the 60s when J Edgar Hoover ruled the roost at FBI HQ in Washington, that WT followers were called:
J Hoover's Witnesses.
Cheers
moggy lover
JoinedPosts by moggy lover
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28
Does God mind being called the wrong name?
by Gill insince it is a well known fact that god's name is definitely not jehovah, but this was a name only in 'operation' for the last few hundred years thanks to a catholic monk, doesn't the very jealous, bad tempered god of the ot mind being called, in effect, 'fred' when his real name is 'george'.. i would think that call anyone by a knowingly incorrect name is rude, rude, rude, so how does this bad tempered, psycopathic, mass murdering god of the ot feel about this transgression on the part of the wtbts/jehovah's witnesses!!????.
not too pleased, i would guess!.
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10
Know of a commentary on Revelation BETTER than the Rev Climax book?
by M.J. inknow of a good commentary/analysis of revelation?
a reference that's faithful to the concept of exegesis rather than eisegesis*?.
a good antidote to the revelation climax book currently being studied by jws?.
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moggy lover
Hi, MJ, There are several good books written about the Book of Revelation that are available on the market today, and all written by God-fearing men who have a fondness and love of truth that far surpasses any WTS superficiallity at spiritual posturing.
The thing to remember, though, if you are going to venture into this wonderful world of independant spiritual inquiry, is the wealth of personal freedom that is available for the expression of thought on biblical matters. When I first confronted this, on leaving the highly structured system of belief that is the WTS, a system that demanded conformity, and denied dissent, some twenty years ago, I found this freedom, coupled with the almost infinite amount of information available, dauntng, to say the least.
True Christians are a free people in free association in free assembly. A true measure of their love for the spiritual fraternity that has called them together, is their tolerance of different points of view. No one is difellowshipped for holding a contrary idea, especiaaly not in Evangelical churches, like for instance the Baptists.
So, when it comes to prophecy, and the Book of Revelation, the thing to remember is that there are basically three seperate viewpoints that are represented by True Christians. Two of these views look on Revelation as having been already fulfilled: The Preterist, which sees Revelation being fulfilled at the time of the 1C AD, or thereabouts, then there is the Historicist, which sees Revelation being fulfilled in history that is passed, and the Futurist, which holds that Revelation is still bound for future fulfillment, in an undisclosed future. A simple example for this is the beast of Rev 13. The Preterist sees this as the Roman Empire, the Historicist as the Papacy, especially since the 15thC when the Reformation occured, and the Futurist sees it as a future Worldwide ruler called the AntiChrist.
A good starting point is an overall view of prophecy itself and a couple of good books for this is are: "Things To Come" by Prof Dwight L Pentecost. Although he is, like me, a Futurist, he does give a fair composit picture of the various ways in which prophecy can be viewed. Another good book for this sort of explanation is "The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy" by Tim LaHaye and Something [sic] Hindson [Unfortunately his first name escapes me at present] both, again are Futurists, but give a wide coverage of prophecy. "The Second Coming Bible" is written from the Historicist viewpoint and also reflects this kind of approach. The author is William Biderwolf.
From a historicist point there are: "A Simplified Commentary on the Book of Revelation" by Harry Buis, "The Millennium" by Loraine Boettner [Don't let that first name fool ya, he ain't no lady, he's a Frenchman with attitude, only joking only joking] An unusual book to say the least, is "Prophecy's Last Word" by Frederick Tatford. Although he accepts the Historicist position of Revelation, he does feel that some portions also have a future fulfillment, ie, having two fulfillments.
Good Futurist books are: "Approaching Hoofbeats" by Billy Graham, "Revelation Visualized" by Salem Kirban, "Revelation" by Theodore Epp. "Lectures on Revelation" by Henry Ironside,and "The King is Coming" by HL Willmington.
A quiet trip down to your local Christian bookstore will reveal a lot more titles to peruse. The thing to avoid is the "Realized School" of Prophecy, which is advocated by various cultic systems. This sees an idiosyncratic view of Revelation, wherein the things depicted there have a contrived fulfillment on the cultic group. The two most [in]famous for this are The WTS and HW Armstrong's WWCOG.
Good hunting and hope this helps.
By the way, I remember you once asking about Bruce Metzger's "A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament" Oddly enough, I was surfing the net just the other day, when I came across a site called "Logos Bible Sofware" who have an electronic version of the book for immediate download, and for a comparitively cheap cost. I think it was about $30. I thought about you, and was going to PM you. but there you go, you've got the message anyway.
"The quest for truth is endless, but it is the trip, not the goal that sustains belief" - Moggy Lover, circa 2007.
Cheers
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13
1914, 607 and why the details don't mean as much as the bigger picture
by drew sagan ini wrote this just because i recently saw some people on another site trying to defend the 607 date.
this is mostly for lurkers, those who still may be hodling onto the idea that there is truth in this date.
probably one of the most talked about wt doctrines is that of 1914 and the 'gentile times'.
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moggy lover
Terry: Gosh you bring back memories !! I recall this incident as if it were yesterday, when I was out in the d2d work with the son of of one of our elders in the local congreation,[He would have been in his fifties, so I'm not talking of some kid] when I was confronted at the door by this kindly old gent who enquired about how we arrived at what he considered the absurd notion of Christ's invisible retutn in 1914. Realizing that it would take time to explain, and was far too complex to simply retell in one sitting just there on the doorstep, since it requires the basic understanding that "this" means "that" and "this" multiplies by "that" to get whatever, I ventured to come back at a more appropriate time.
But the elders son, who assumed that I was incapable of summing up a basic doctrine of the WTS, and who regarded himself as an expert in this field, suddenly leapt in and started to unravel the teaching as he conceived it to be. From my vantage point, as an unintended observer, I soon found my self listening to the most bizarre piece of nonsense I had ever had the misfortune to hear.
In the middle of trees which did'nt actually mean trees being cut down, there were a confusing set of figures like 360 which had to be multiplied by 7 to arrive at a time when satan was expelled from heaven, or was it Christ? then you had all these angels putting bands around this tree, or was it trees?
For some reason that was'nt all together clear, that tree began to grow again after 1914,and then you had all these nations which had not yet recognized that they had been done away with, because of some condition called either the Gentile times or the "Appointed times of the Nations" [In fact he belaboured the point to the extent that even he was losing track of what he was saying]
Of course, in this amalgam, days became years, by some mysterious alchemy which he failed to either grasp, or explain, and "times" were becoming confused with seasons and the multiplication function This is what it came out as: seven times three hundred and sixty leaves 2520 times, which of course are'nt times but years.......
The old bloke at the door who had been listening, and who doubtless had come to the firm conclusion that the speaker was mentally unhinged, simply said after this recital:
"Biggest piece of bollocks I ever heard !"
Cheers
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6
Who watches where the WTS's money goes?
by meglet44 ini've given this site a cursory look and didn't find this particular topic.
so my question is: who makes sure the high ups at the watchtower society aren't lining their pockets with all the money the members contribute?
i asked my jw-raised boyfriend and he said that they were honest people and god was watching over them.
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moggy lover
The WTS has, since its earliest years kept its accounts under a veil of the strictest secrecy. No one but the closest GB member involved in any particular financial venture of the society has access to the figures.
This trend was first established by the treasurer under Russell's presidency. Van Amburg, a dapper, white haired man who affected a well trimmed goatee, controlled WTS accounts with such a sense of classified paranoia, that the only person he allowed to see the figures was Russell himself. During the Miracle wheat trial, when Russell was on the ropes in a case involving alleged fraud, Van Amburg hurt Russell more than helped him by his unwillingness to give frank testimony in regard to the society's finances. This naturally reflected back on Russell who soon came to be regarded, uncharitably, and probably wrongly, as a charlatan.
The next President JF Rutherford adamantly refused to allow anyone to inspect the Society's books, much less audit them. When his own vice-President, and a man he supposedly trusted, Andrew Pierson, asked to see the accounts, because of rumours that had begun to circulate about improper financial dealings between the the British Branch and NY Bethel, he was forced to resign.
This has continued to this day. The WTS financial records are perpetually guarded by a phalanx of legal depositions that make it impossible for an investigator to probe. When one joins the WT movement, one soon realizes that there are certain areas that remain out of bounds, shrouded in impenetrable mystery. One of these areas is cash. Your only stipulation is to part with it, not scrutinize it.
It is assumed by the R&F at large, on grounds no weightier than blind faith, that the WTS is a faithful custodian of its follower's money. Such trust has not always been recompensed. Men such as Rutherford and Knorr have lived such sybaritic and extravagant lifestyles, that without any accountability, they have been positively profligate with the money of others.
I can recount one such example of profligacy. When Knorr flew on any Society business, first class, of course, he always booked a window seat and the seat next to him as well. This was ostensibly for his briefcase, but the real reason was his antipathy towards the preaching work. He felt he might actually have to talk to someone about the "Kingdom message" that he so prominently pontificated about from the platform. None of those followers of the WTS who regarded him with almost mystical awe, were aware that they were in fact paying for two first class tickets for a man who had such scorn for their hard earned money.
Cheers
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14
Did Fred Franz?
by sspo inat the service meeting this week it was mentioned that fred franz was very educated and spoke 6,7 languages.
and was able to give 1.5 hrs talks without an outline and quote all the scriptures from memory.. i heard that about him for the last 30 years.. is it true or just a mith?
anyone know more about it?.
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moggy lover
Franz's education was spotty at best. He spent two years at the University of Kentucky, where he studied some Latin, but even less NT Greek. He left in 1914 after two years, because of becoming convinced that the world was to end in that year, courtesy of Russell.
As Hortensia has mentioned above, a vast mythology developed around Franz, encouraged, no doubt by the WTS. In the 50s a book entitled "Faith On The March" was published, written by WT heavy, AH MacMillan, which intimated that He spoke x number of languages, and was a stupendous scholar. Much of that was baloney.
He was no doubt an intelligent man, and possessed the one hallmark of scholarship that leads to erudition, a love of learning. His problem was that he rejoiced, vacuously, in the notion that he was, somehow a special "oracle" divinely appointed to plumb the depths of Scripture.
So he pursued the worst form of learning. He taught himself. He was "largely self-taught" in Hebrew and Greek.
The problem with being self-taught is twofold: 1You have a fool for a teacher 2 You isolate yourself from others who are in the same endeavour. There is something to be said for going through the crucible of testing that is called "exams" where you pit youself against your peers, and as result can tell where you really stand. Its nice to come first, but only when there are a second and third and so on. Coming first in a one horse race is an exercise in futility.
The only language endeavour I am aware of, is a course in Portugese, which Franz attempted to learn through a set of Linguaphone records. He wanted to do this because he was scheduled to make a trip to Brazil. Evidently his pronunciation was so bad, he was requested to give it a miss.
Remember, Franz had an almost open purse supplied by the WTS, which enabled him to purchase some of the finest works of Biblical learning that were available, books that would be beyond our price range. Using these, he was enabled, through diligent, but cultic inspired application, to construct his largely idiosyncratic "translation" of the Bile.
Nevertheless, his writing style was both cumbersome and prolix, and bordered on the unintelligible. His famous "Babylon the Great" must go down as probably the most incomprehensible book the WTS has yet produced. His "Life Everlasting In the Freedom of the Sons of God" published in 1966, was so impenertrable, that it was withdrawn from the weekly study after just six months since even the conductors found it hard to fathom its mysteries. A Random House editor commented that the book had to have been written by either a first year high school student of journalism, or an inmate in a mental institute. [Gruss - The 4 Presidents of the WTS, pg 42]
Despite living in a well populated centre such as Bethel HQ, Franz lived mostly in seclusion, and developed an egotistical, hermetically sealed outlook on life that was intolerant of any intrusive scrutiny.
But he was the best the WTS had, and with his passing, WT polemic has all but withered away, to be replaced by slick, legalistic mumbo-jumbo, mouthed by the new whiz kids on the WT block.
Cheers
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36
The fastest scripture looker upper
by SacrificialLoon ina comment by rubadub in the thread about learning new things at the meetings made me remember something, and gave me a chuckle.. i would always see how fast i could look up the scriptures during the talks, and race to beat most everyone else.
of course everyone else didn't realize i was racing them, but i'd always feel a smug (and perhaps a bit self-righteous) satisfaction at having the scripture looked up and ready to follow along while from the sights and sounds around me most everyone else was still looking it up.
being able to look up jehovah's word with such speed would surely earn me spiritual brownie points.
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moggy lover
It was'nt that I was quick, but I certainly gave the appearance of being so. The trick I used was to employ certain mnemonics. For instance I knew that the Scripture in question was either on the right or the left, top or bottom of the page, and so on.
Another was to remember how to distinguish between the First and second of certain books, like 1Tim and 2Tim. I Tim 3 was about the elders, 2Tim 3 about the last days "hard to deal with"
Matt 24 was a cinch. Quoted so often by the WTS, my Bible was well thumbed at that place. The Gospel of John was a black hole, but then the GB did'nt use it much except insofar as they needed it as a rebuttal against some Christian doctrine.
The OT was'nt too bad, since as Blondie has pointed out, only a few stock verses are needed to sustain, at least superficially, WT doctrine. All you needed to know about Psalms for instance was 83:18 and 37:29 and so on. Again the top/down, right/left artifice helped.
Of course all this was totally dependant on my own particilar edition of the NWT, since my familiarity with its format facilitated the mnemonics. If I was given a different edition, like the large print, or even a different translation, then I was up the creek without a paddle, I tell ya.
But then no one dared. I mean I was an elder and all, was'nt I? I was considered a Top Gun, so there.
>sigh<
Little did they know. But it was fun. The adulation I mean. Possitively heady, like wine.
Cheers
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Growth and Decline in churches incl. JWs
by Dogpatch inyearbook of churches issues 75th editionhttp://www.wfn.org/2007/03/msg00069.html.
from "ncc news" <[email protected]>.
date mon, 05 mar 2007 15:00:19 -0500. .
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moggy lover
FJToth, This arose from a well publicized [among the Jws and Sdas, that is] conversion of a Wt follower in one of our country towns, Pemperton,WA. A local elder became an SDA, and evidently took much of the local congrgation with him. He subsequently wrote a booklet and edited a magazine that compared growth figures for the two groups. To the best of my knowledge, he is still happily, an SDA. In fact I remember seeing his booklet, in an updated edition, on the internet somwhere.
This occured, as far as I can recall, in the late 70s. Ever since then, a phobia developed, possibly among the local WT followers, of SDA encroachments into their domain. I was an elder myself at that time, and while no mass exodus to the SDAs ensued, we were constantly being updated with SDA attendance figures. Assurances were conveyed to us by the country COs that we were in reality having attendances higher than them. It really became competitive at that time. Remember this was during the traumatic years following 1975.
Cheers
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Growth and Decline in churches incl. JWs
by Dogpatch inyearbook of churches issues 75th editionhttp://www.wfn.org/2007/03/msg00069.html.
from "ncc news" <[email protected]>.
date mon, 05 mar 2007 15:00:19 -0500. .
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moggy lover
Incidently, DP, can you tell us, only for statistical data, the numbers for the SDAs. The WTS often compared themselves to the SDAs and contrived to show the divine origins for their growth by comparing themselves to the SDAs
Thanks
Cheers
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4
Has this been confirmed?
by sinis inmy ex-jw brother in law told me the other day that he received a call from a brother asking him if he would like to come back to meetings.
he told the brother not at this time.
to make a long conversation short, the borther indicated that they have been told by hq that two watchtowers will only be printed once a month.
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moggy lover
Yes it has been confirmed. Starting Jan 2008, the WT will be published in two seperate editions. The Wt of the first of each month will be a "public" edition with no study articles, and the 15th of the month will see the "private" edition which will consist of the four study articles for each month. This edition, will, like the Kingdom Ministry, only be available to fully subscribed members of the WTS.
Cheers
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25
Acts 5:42 (from house to house) OR (in private homes)
by rassillon in***i believe i have the correct scripture here but if i don't please correct me.
i have thought a great deal on this topic since i first read it in one of ray franz books isocf.. he had a section that dealt with the greek term translated "house to house" and compared it to other scriptures which contained the same greek phrase and showed that it was likely that it should be translated "in private homes".. now i know that some will make the point that "house to house" is a valid translation and from what i know (which is very little) cannot disagree.. what i can say though is that from my knowledge about life in this period and this area of the world and from my traveling to ruins of ancient citys i would have to agree with franz that the phrase "in private homes" makes more sense because preaching from "house to house/door to door" at that time period would have been extreemely ineffective.
preaching in a public square and then returning with interested ones to their "private homes" for further discussion would make more sense if one was to be effective.. from those with a knowledge of the time/place/culture that this scripture applies to, do you agree with me?
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moggy lover
It is probably wrong to ask the question: "Does the expression "Kath' Oikion" used at Acts 5:42 mean "From "house to house" " because no answer can be given to such a question. Rather I would think the proper question is: "Can it mean such"?
The reason for this dilemma is because the phrase Kath' Oikion can actually have two meanings. And whereas in most texts the meanings can be distinguished, in a few, such as this verse, a measure of ambiguity persists. It can have an "idiomatic" or a "distributive" meaning. If in the context of Acts 5:42, the phrase under discussion has a "distributive" meaning then it may very well be translated "from house to house" as do several translations of this passage.[See NASB, NET, Barklay etc]
If it has an idiomatic meaning, as evidenced by a majority of translations [NKJB NJB RSV NLT AMP NEB REB NAB and even one WT approved version BY] then it would mean "privately" or some variant like "at home" or "in private homes" etc. This is the majority view because the expression "Kath Oikion" is used at Acts 2:46, where the distributive sense cannot be sustained. Otherwise we would have the improbable notion that the early Christians went from house to house breaking bread. In fact it is pertinent to point out that here the NWT does translate the phrase as "in private homes" Go figure.
The problem for us here lies with the word "Kata" which, among its various applications flowing from its basic meaning of "According to" is a distributive one. For instance take a look at Mar 6:40, where NASB has "And they laid themselves down in companies of one hundreds and fiflties" NWT is virtually the same except for the use of "groups" instead of "companies" A literal rendering of this verse would be "They laid themselves down group by group in hundreds and fifties" [ Brown/Comfort Lit version] In a case such as this, the distributive application of Kata is clear.
So we may concede that, were we to take advantage of the relative ambiguity in this verse as the WTS does, that Acts 5:42 could be rendered "House to house" as the WTS would have us believe. However we still have to account for the context. In this verse it tells us that "They" went from house to house and were in the Temple. Has any WTS follower ever asked the simple question who the "They" are in this verse? Hmmm? Does it refer to the whole community of believers, as the WTS insists on pressuring us with?
The context is established by reading from Vs 18, where "they" are first mentioned. It turns out that this entire chapter is speaking about the Church leadership at time, as exercised by the Apostles. They are the "they" who are spoken of. 1They were accused 2They were beaten 3They were tried by the Sanhedrin 4They were charged not to preach in the name of Jesus. 5 They refused 6 They were finally released 7They preached in the Temple and from House to house
Now in all the cases above, according to the WTS the "They" who are mentioned, is admitted to be the Apostles, except for the one, the last, which by some strange alchemy, morphs into the whole community of believers. I will believe the WTS requirement for the entire community to be encumbent with the house to house preaching if the WTS can explain how a small group like the 12 Apostles can be transformed into a community of believers numbering at least 10 000.
I will also believe the WTS interpretation of this text, when I see the WTS leadership, headed by Ted Jaracz out in the field service, distributing the very literature they produce. Not just once a month, not just for one hour, but every bloody day [that's what Acts 5:42 requires] slogging it out in the heat and biting cold, from dawn to dusk. If Ted and his arrogant flunkies have a "love" for jehovah that they so boastfully claim to have, then let them go first, establish the custom, then maybe, I might follow.
It is the most outrageous filth to see these "leaders" comfortable in their luxury, with undisclosed amounts on their credit cards, winging their way around the world in arrogant splendour, making imperious statements from behind the security and anonymity of the platforms they speak from, and the literature they spew out, about how others should act, when they do nothing to alleviate the burdens they themselves impose on their followers.
Do NOT believe, nor be afraid of, these evil and blasphemous men. Nowhere in the NT is there ever a need for every single member of the community of believers to preach from house to house or otherwise. That is not your responsibity, nor is it mine. It is the work of the Holy Spirit. For those who have neither the gift nor the temperment for it, the Holy Spirit will raise up, not just others who do have this gift and temperment, but hundreds and thousands of others. It is only when a faithless and carnal group of men, consumed by their own prominence, and unaware of the power of the Holy Spirit, that such unnessessary commands become apparent.
Cheers